I was talking to the goiter ([info]gmth) wrote,
2005-03-12 15:31:00
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"Said is dead"?

My son came home from school yesterday with a creative writing assignment. He has to write a few exchanges of dialogue between two or three characters based on a "missing scene" from the book they're reading now.

Sound familiar? My son is writing fan fiction! And it's for school! Hee! (Sorry, that just tickles me.)

Anyway, one thing in particular caught my eye: the teacher's handout states they are not to use the word "said" more than twice in this piece. "Said is dead!" this handout proclaims, "try these instead!" And then it goes on to list a bunch of "said" alternatives like:



  • accused
  • added
  • ad-libbed
  • admitted
  • advised
  • affirmed
  • agreed
  • alleged
  • announced
  • answered
  • argued
  • articulated
  • asked
  • asserted
  • assumed
  • babbled
  • balked
  • bantered
  • barked
  • bawled
  • beckoned
  • begged
  • bellowed
  • blabbed
  • blasted
  • blubbered
  • blurted
  • boasted
  • boomed
  • bragged
  • brayed
  • breathed
  • bubbled
  • cackled
  • called
  • chanted
  • chattered
  • chimed
  • chirped
  • chortled
  • chuckled
  • choked
  • commanded
  • commented
  • complained
  • consoled
  • continued
  • cooed
  • corrected
  • cracked
  • cried
  • crowed
  • dared
  • debated
  • declared
  • declined
  • decried
  • deduced
  • defended
  • deferred
  • delivered
  • demanded
  • denied
  • denounced
  • described
  • dictated
  • directed
  • divulged
  • drawled
  • echoed
  • emitted
  • emphasized
  • encouraged
  • enunciated
  • exclaimed
  • exhorted
  • explained
  • exploded
  • expressed
  • gabbed
  • gasped
  • giggled
  • gossiped
  • grinned
  • groaned
  • growled
  • grumbled
  • grunted
  • hesitated
  • hinted
  • hissed
  • hollered
  • howled
  • hummed
  • imparted
  • implied
  • indicated
  • insisted
  • instructed
  • interjected
  • interrupted
  • invited
  • jawed
  • joked
  • joshed
  • justified
  • laughed
  • lied
  • lamented
  • maintained
  • mentioned
  • mimicked
  • moaned
  • mouthed
  • mumbled
  • muttered
  • nagged
  • niggled
  • noted
  • objected
  • observed
  • ordered
  • panted
  • pattered
  • persisted
  • persuaded
  • phrased
  • piped
  • pleaded
  • positioned
  • prattled
  • preached
  • predicted
  • proclaimed
  • pronounced
  • proposed
  • protested
  • puffed
  • queried
  • questioned
  • quipped
  • quoted
  • ranted
  • reasoned
  • recalled
  • recited
  • refused
  • related
  • relayed
  • reflected
  • remarked
  • reminded
  • repeated
  • replied
  • reported
  • responded
  • restated
  • retorted
  • roared
  • scoffed
  • scolded
  • screamed
  • screeched
  • shouted
  • shrieked
  • sighed
  • snapped
  • snarled
  • snickered
  • sniffed
  • snorted
  • sobbed
  • sounded
  • specified
  • speculated
  • spewed
  • spieled
  • spoke
  • sputtered
  • squawked
  • squeaked
  • squealed
  • stammered
  • stated
  • stressed
  • stuttered
  • submitted
  • suggested
  • tattled
  • teased
  • testified
  • thanked
  • thought
  • thundered
  • told
  • urged
  • uttered
  • wailed
  • warbled
  • wept
  • whimpered
  • whined
  • whispered
  • whistled
  • wondered
  • verbalised
  • vocalised
  • voiced
  • vowed


OMG! Can you imagine reading a fic -- or a novel -- where the word "said" was replaced over and over again by one of these words?? I think I'd end up throwing the damn thing across the room. That would feel *so* over-written to me. Once in a while, okay, when you're trying to create an atmosphere, but seems to me it should be the exception rather than the rule. Blergh.

I almost hope the child doesn't decide to become a professional writer; I'd hate for him to have to unlearn this "wisdom" they're passing along to him. Yikes.

ETA: Oh eek, and it looks like it's not just being done in his school, either. I just Googled on this and found this article (scroll down) for fan fic writers on Mugglenet.
Tags: writing

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[info]musesfool

March 12 2005, 20:36:15 UTC 7 years ago

God, I hate that people teach new writers this. It's such bad advice, and so hard to unlearn.

[info]gmth

March 12 2005, 21:00:12 UTC 7 years ago

I'm almost outraged about it, like they're deliberately teaching my son incorrect information. I see from comments below, though, that this has been going on for a long time now.

[info]ltsk

7 years ago

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[info]gmth

7 years ago

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[info]srichard

March 12 2005, 20:36:41 UTC 7 years ago

That's it. Brayed is now finding its way into every single one of my fics from now on.

[info]gmth

March 12 2005, 21:00:28 UTC 7 years ago

Yay! Ponyboys!

[info]auctasinistra

7 years ago

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[info]srichard

7 years ago

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[info]auctasinistra

7 years ago

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[info]imkalena

7 years ago

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[info]dramaphile

7 years ago

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[info]godonthewater

7 years ago

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[info]maeglinyedi

March 12 2005, 20:38:36 UTC 7 years ago

*shakes head sadly*

I think all those people, especially your son's teacher and whoever wrote that article on mugglenet, are in desperate need of a creative writing course.

[info]gmth

March 12 2005, 21:01:13 UTC 7 years ago

Yeah, I don't get why they're doing it. Apparently this is not a unique situation, though, given some of the comments below. Strange.

[info]tarie

March 12 2005, 20:39:19 UTC 7 years ago

I think we ought to make a fanfic challenge out of this - use as many of these 'said is dead!' suggestions and as many of those horrid names for genitals thing that went around (I think it was on themostepotente's lj a while ago?) as possible.

[info]gmth

March 12 2005, 21:01:55 UTC 7 years ago

Heh, go for it. The fic challenges I've issued in the past have all fallen flat on their faces, maybe you'll have better luck. ;-)

[info]godonthewater

7 years ago

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[info]scarah2

March 12 2005, 20:40:02 UTC 7 years ago

Hopefully it's just a weird exercize for the one assignment.

The next one will be JKR style, where everyone said everything "savagely."

[info]gmth

March 12 2005, 20:59:14 UTC 7 years ago

Heh, what cracks me up most about Jo is if she can't find an adverb to describe what she's thinking about, she makes one up, viz:

croakily
beadily
squeakily
blotchily

I love the woman to pieces, but I do wish she'd stop it already.

[info]undeadgoat

7 years ago

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[info]justaredherring

7 years ago

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[info]pauraque

March 12 2005, 20:43:15 UTC 7 years ago

Yeah, that's common. I got the same handout in sixth grade. Luckily I was already a pretty accomplished writer (for a 12 year old), so I knew it was BS. But reading the work of my classmates was pretty painful.

[info]gmth

March 12 2005, 21:03:51 UTC 7 years ago

I tried explaining that the handout is incorrect, but by the same token he sort of has to do it that way because it's an assignment. Hmm, maybe it's time for the "question authority" and "stand up for what you know is right" pep talks...

[info]taleanea

7 years ago

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[info]absurdwords

March 12 2005, 20:44:48 UTC 7 years ago

I'd prefer 'said' over the overusage 'vocalised'.

[info]gmth

March 12 2005, 21:04:34 UTC 7 years ago

Oh, I agree. Blergh on "vocalized." Or any of these words used too often, really. So unnecessary.

[info]contrariwise

March 12 2005, 20:46:14 UTC 7 years ago

AUGH. Someone needs to look into the difference between teaching vocabulary and teaching creative writing.

[info]laurelwood

March 12 2005, 20:55:22 UTC 7 years ago

Except that according to a recent handout from my daughter's school, it's not even called creative writing anymore- it's a "fictional narrative". *massive eyeroll*

[info]gmth

7 years ago

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[info]undeadgoat

7 years ago

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[info]deirdre_riordan

March 12 2005, 20:46:44 UTC 7 years ago

At least 'ejaculated' isn't one of the suggestions

Someone I knew in grade school wrote a story about a vampire who yelled a lot. His name was Ejacula.

On an actually-related note, ARGH. I mean, spieled? That handout needs to get over itself.

[info]gmth

March 12 2005, 21:06:32 UTC 7 years ago

Right?

"Let me tell you something, Potter," Snape spieled.

Yeah, that makes loads of sense.

[info]godonthewater

7 years ago

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[info]gmth

7 years ago

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[info]dramaphile

7 years ago

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[info]gmth

7 years ago

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[info]pbrink

7 years ago

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[info]auctasinistra

March 12 2005, 20:47:33 UTC 7 years ago

Sigh...

I wish people would stop issuing blanket edicts and try to convey something of the thought and craft of writing to young minds. As people here have said, now he'll have to unlearn this -- or, rather, learn that it's OK sometimes, and how to spot those times in his own work. Which the teacher should have told him in the first place.

[info]gmth

March 12 2005, 21:07:49 UTC 7 years ago

Re: Sigh...

I suppose it's a way of helping increase vocabulary... I guess. I can't think of any other valid reason why they would do something like this. The more I think about it, the more it's pissing me off.

[info]auctasinistra

7 years ago

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[info]hikaru

March 12 2005, 20:48:36 UTC 7 years ago

"said is dead" is exactly how i was taught, from elementary school all the way on up to my composition class my first year in college. I still have to try really hard to use"said" when writing.

[info]gmth

March 12 2005, 21:09:38 UTC 7 years ago

Gah, I just don't get it. That's what, a 10-15 year time span? If said were *really* dead, don't they think the world would have caught on by now? So silly.

[info]tacitadark

7 years ago

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[info]ani_bester

March 12 2005, 20:51:22 UTC 7 years ago

Parent teacher meeting time me thinks. I mean yay for expanding vocabulary because you want them to know that there are other ways to say something but to present it like that, gyaaa -_-

But yeah I got that too when I was in elementary school.
You should tell him that what really cant' be over used are adverbs ending in Ly. Now that, generally, is good writing advice

[info]gmth

March 12 2005, 21:10:55 UTC 7 years ago

Yeah, I think I'm going to write to the teacher. It's a minor thing, really, and not something that'll matter if he's not going to make a hobby of or a living from writing, but it bugs me.

[info]ani_bester

7 years ago

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[info]versinae

March 12 2005, 20:54:24 UTC 7 years ago

I think every kid gets that handout in English class eventually, I know I did. It does help them learn new vocabulary, though.

[info]gmth

March 12 2005, 21:11:49 UTC 7 years ago

I have no objection to new vocabulary. There are better ways to present it, though. Maybe as an exercise, but not an edict.

[info]rose_whispers

March 12 2005, 21:03:02 UTC 7 years ago

"Are you sure you're all right, Severus?" Remus verbalized.
"Get out of my way, Lupin," Severus decried.
"But Severus!" Remus puffed.
"Or I shall hex you into one thousand gooey pieces," Severus jawed.

Fucking jawed??? There's nothing more distracting in a story than this kind of crap. Nothing wrong about using a few to make things interesting, but to me good dialogue doesn't need it- the reader can already tell the speaker's tone.

[info]gmth

March 12 2005, 21:13:16 UTC 7 years ago

LOL! Jawed, yeah. Or spieled. Or emitted. That's my other favorite one. Sounds like a personal problem, emitting in the middle of a conversation. ;-)

[info]safewrite

7 years ago

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[info]rose_whispers

7 years ago

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[info]fernwithy

March 12 2005, 21:06:30 UTC 7 years ago

God, I hate it when teachers teach bad things. She's probably just trying to improve his vocabulary, but honest-to-God, by encouraging horrendous said-replacements where "said" is perfectly suitable? Does she actually do that in her own writing? (Please, no. Please don't let an adult who's made it all the way through a graduate program actually believe this.)

[info]gmth

March 12 2005, 21:14:13 UTC 7 years ago

Hehehe, I actually have no idea. I think it's a district thing rather than a teacher-specific thing. And apparently this is pretty widespread, according to a few other folks who have posted in this thread.

[info]fernwithy

7 years ago

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[info]ceilidh

7 years ago

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[info]gmth

7 years ago

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[info]ceilidh

7 years ago

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[info]gmth

7 years ago

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[info]ceilidh

7 years ago

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[info]wikdsushi

March 12 2005, 21:07:40 UTC 7 years ago

Do you want a short letter from a published writer (not very published, but published all the same) stating that "said" is not only alive and kicking, but is the verb of choice when attached to dialogue? Information about attached adverbs is freely given (pun there intended). I don't know if it would go very far, but it should carry a little weight in regards to the assignment.

*makes stand*plants flag in "said"*refuses to budge* (That habit took AGES to kill.)

[info]wikdsushi

March 12 2005, 21:09:27 UTC 7 years ago

And can I just add, "lied"? Exposition fairy busy much??? If it's not obvious from context or character reaction, it needs to be, damn it. How often do people think, "I lied," at the end of a fib?

Anonymous

6 years ago

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[info]gmth

7 years ago

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[info]herbmcsidhe

7 years ago

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[info]gmth

7 years ago

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...and 2 more comments... from [info]lolaraincoat, [info]elbiesee Expand

[info]mieronna

March 12 2005, 21:10:10 UTC 7 years ago

*sigh*
they told us something similar in German classes. And in English classes. And in French. Oh almost forgot - my Russian teacher once told me to vary my vocabulary a bit, too. Because "said" is such a boring word in any language you can imagine, it instantly becomes bad style if you use it more then two times in a row.

[info]gmth

March 12 2005, 21:17:49 UTC 7 years ago

I don't even notice the word "said" 99% of the time. I do notice the varied vocabulary 100% of the time, though. (Well, 90% of the time.)

That is to say, I notice it in other people's writing, not so much in my own. One of my betas once pointed out to me that I was using weird vocabulary where "said" would have done just fine, and ever since then I've been very sensitive to it.

[info]mieronna

7 years ago

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[info]undeadgoat

7 years ago

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[info]mieronna

7 years ago

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[info]rose_whispers

7 years ago

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[info]gmth

7 years ago

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[info]xuenay

7 years ago

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[info]hagia_sophia

7 years ago

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[info]mieronna

7 years ago

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[info]fluffyllama

March 12 2005, 21:12:50 UTC 7 years ago

Oh, some of those are truly painful, even aside from the whole said thing. I've never hit a back button quicker than when I saw 'vocalised' used in the first few lines of a fic recently. *shudder*

[info]gmth

March 12 2005, 21:18:43 UTC 7 years ago

Aren't they, though? They're encouraging my kid to write badfic, and it's making me want to rend my garments.

[info]melaniedavidson

7 years ago

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[info]fluffyllama

7 years ago

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[info]melaniedavidson

7 years ago

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[info]nekorin

7 years ago

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[info]melaniedavidson

7 years ago

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[info]nufaciel

March 12 2005, 21:15:27 UTC 7 years ago

Does this teacher read anything that is published? My God, my head hurts.

Yet one more reason that I will home school if I ever have children. What are they teaching these days?

*snickers* I just got this mental image of Lucius Malfoy "warbling". (Is that a word? *shrugs*)

[info]gmth

March 12 2005, 21:20:28 UTC 7 years ago

I just got this mental image of Lucius Malfoy "warbling".

LOL! Yeah, it's a word. I usually think of it in association with birds, so the idea of Lucius warbling has me giggling like a fiend. ;-)

[info]nufaciel

7 years ago

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[info]auctasinistra

7 years ago

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[info]nufaciel

7 years ago

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[info]auctasinistra

7 years ago

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[info]nufaciel

7 years ago

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[info]queenofzan

7 years ago

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[info]lolaraincoat

March 12 2005, 21:18:16 UTC 7 years ago

"Well, I think it's a fine idea," Babs babbled.

"Suits me!" joshed Josh.

"Mmm ... I love it," Coco cooed.

"All the cool kids are doing it!" gabbled Gabby.

[info]gmth

March 12 2005, 21:31:08 UTC 7 years ago

*snerk*

It just occurred to me that "opined" is not on the list. Now that's a word that should be used more often. ;-)

[info]silentauror

7 years ago

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[info]gmth

7 years ago

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[info]silentauror

7 years ago

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[info]the_dark_twin

March 12 2005, 21:34:54 UTC 7 years ago

LOL, we wrote "fanfic" for school, too, and I always loved it. And we were made to use "vivid" adjectives and images and metaphors, too - completely overloading our writing with flowery verbosity. I did unlearn it again though.

Ahem. To a certain degree anyway.

Love that list - especially warbled. Must use "warbled" more often in my writing. Sounds like something Lucius Malfoy would do. *g*

Anyway now I know why so much awful fanfic written by teenagers is awful.

[info]gmth

March 12 2005, 21:41:03 UTC 7 years ago

Anyway now I know why so much awful fanfic written by teenagers is awful.

Yeah, absolutely. I've been told that the use of epithets ("the werewolf," "the dark-haired wizard," etc.) is taught as being preferred, too. No wonder some writers seem almost pathologically scared of using characters' names.

[info]the_dark_twin

7 years ago

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[info]undeadgoat

7 years ago

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[info]nekorin

7 years ago

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[info]undeadgoat

7 years ago

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[info]atrata

March 12 2005, 21:37:37 UTC 7 years ago

Hee. I come from a journalism background, where we were beaten over the head if we used anything other than said. I do like to mix it up a little bit, maybe use 'asked' if someone is, well, asking, but other than that? Yikes. I mean, come on. Testified? Shouldn't that be saved for, um, testimony? Sheesh.

[info]gmth

March 12 2005, 21:44:49 UTC 7 years ago

I like to mix it up sometimes, too. The important word there being "sometimes." I'm so glad I was never told I should almost never used the word "said." Plus it just makes me mad that my son is being force-fed misinformation (and yes, I know it won't be the last time, either).

[info]melaniedavidson

7 years ago

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[info]atrata

7 years ago

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[info]melaniedavidson

7 years ago

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[info]freakykat

March 12 2005, 21:37:56 UTC 7 years ago

Okay as a writer, an English major AND a teacher this pisses me off. It makes writing more of a chore for those kids that already don't like it and confuses those that do. It gets them started on bad habits when it comes to writing. Not to mention it gives them the false idea that the more big words they use, the better the writing must be.

Which we all know is complete BS.

All it manages to do is give you a complex about your writing and stifles your creativity. The more you worry that your writing should sound a certain, the more you lose the honesty of it.

I'm reading Stephen King's writing memoir On Writing and he makes a mention of SOME creative writing teacher's habits to teach that vocabulary is the most important part of writing. There's a passage from it that I think covers how most of us feel about this:

There is a core simplicity to the English language and its American variant, but it's a slippery core. All I ask is tbat you do as well as you can, and remember that, while to write adverbs is human, to write he said and she said is divine

~Kat

[info]gmth

March 12 2005, 21:46:26 UTC 7 years ago

Ah, thanks for chiming in. It's gratifying to know not all teachers are thinking/teaching this way. And that is an utterly brilliant quote from King. :-) Thanks for stopping by.

[info]florahart

March 12 2005, 21:59:21 UTC 7 years ago

See, the better rule to teach is, use "said" unless there is something about how the person is speaking that needs to be conveyed and isn't already conveyed by other action or in the speech itself.

Some of those words really are for that--stammered, for instance, or whispered. Those means something other than "said." But a whole bunch of these words are for describing speech or action, not for actually indicating it. Verbalised: Just about the time Hermione had given up completely, Harry verbalised his feelings at last. "I miss Sirius." That works. "I miss Sirius," Harry verbalized at last, just when Hermione was about to give up on him. That's horrible. Same problem exists for at least a quarter of the words on this list.

Weird assignment. I mean, asking them to use a lot of these other words reasonably is fine, but some of them can't even rationally replace "said." ...I mean, "decried?" WTF?

[info]gmth

March 12 2005, 23:44:23 UTC 7 years ago

I guess your kids didn't get this same message from their teachers?

Deleted comment

[info]gmth

March 12 2005, 23:45:03 UTC 7 years ago

"Said" does work just fine. This whole thing is so silly.
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